It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant & stupid some people can be. Why have a support desk if you’re not going to answer or even read the tickets (I admit sometimes I’m a little slow on this – but I ALWAYS answer dammit!)? Why ask someone to promote your product as an affiliate if you’re not going to pay them the commissions they earn? Why bother even being in business if you’re shady, dishonest, misleading, or just a big jerkoff in general?
I’ll be leaving out the name of the guilty party behind this blog post because I don’t aim to drag his/her name through the mud – as much as I’d really like to I’ll refrain, for now at least. Here’s the story in a nutshell:
I meet a person at the hotel bar during an internet marketing seminar and I quickly realize they have little personality & are there for one reason: “pitch, pitch, pitch.” I eventually submit to then neverending barrage of self-promotion & salesmanship & take a few minutes to listen to their well rehearsed script. Surprisingly, the idea behind the product was really great. I checked out the website later that night in my hotel room, and I even signed up for an account. The product itself was ROCK SOLID. I did a little “googling” and couldn’t find a single person with anything bad to say about the marketer behind this product.
I finally decide to put out a promotion for this person. The promo did pretty well. I earned over $500 from sending one email to a sub-list of my subscribers. I go ahead and add a promo to this product in my auto-responder at this point – realizing I’ve found what looks to be a winner. After a few months of running the follow up message I earned several hundred more dollars in commissions for a grand total approaching $1,000.
The first affiliate payment took about 60 days longer than expected to arrive. I was a little concerned but I realize sometimes stuff comes up. Life happens fast, people get busy, everyone needs a vacation, and so on. At this point I kind of “red-flagged” this guy in my mind but I continued promoting his product even though he never replied to my email informing him I went ahead and did a promo. The follow-up message I setup in my auto-responder continued to bring in sales.
Fast forward a few more months, and I’m owed 3 months worth of commissions worth a couple hundred bucks, and they’re ranging in delinquency from 2 months – 4 months. I open a support ticket with a gentle nudge to see what’s going on… only to get no reply. I send another email, no reply. I open my office window and yell up the street, my neighbors reply telling me to shutup. I verified there is signs of life on this planet & people can hear me… I email again, no reply. So now I know it’s not me… it’s just HIM.
Bad customer support + doesn’t pay affiliates + ignores support desk & emails = jerkoff marketer
It’s a shame the product was pretty good. I’m glad he at least delivered a little value to the customers I sent him but quite disappointed that I’ll likely never get the money owed to me. I can only hope I see him being annoying at the hotel bar of a future seminar and I can warn his next possible affiliate victim of the risks associated with falling for his trap.
Then again, perhaps this is an isolated incident? Maybe I somehow fell between the cracks…
Well, I opened one last support ticket in the hopes this dude redeems himself but I think the outlook is grim. I’m just glad that my customers got what they paid for and every one who purchased the product really liked it… I’d rather get ripped off myself then ever let my customers fall victim to someone like this – and that’s exactly why I review every product I promote.
END OF RANT
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Just wanted to say HI. I found your blog a few days ago on Technorati and have been reading it over the past few days.
[...] Being Honest & Keeping Your Word is Important… duh. [...]
your post is amazing
It’s too bad that people like this are in internet marketing. It’s one of the things that gives internet marketing a bad name and causes people to back off from being affiliates. I had one bad experience like that and almost quit. Glad I didn’t though. Hope you get the funds owed.
I am responding to you sales email, sent about this post. Just a friendly suggestion. It is now called Social Networking not Social Bookmarking
I think you should give the name of shady characters so no one else gets taken. I think there should be a website set up giving the names and circumstances to get rid of the shady characters (because they will get no business once everyone finds out)! Linda
Unfortunately, those types are always lurking on the net. You would think that they would be smart enough to realize the long term value in honesty vs. the short-term profit in dishonesty for their business success.
I hope everything eventually works out for you.
Hi Chris,
I feel your pain! I would rather be poor and honest, than take someones hard earned dollar. And, as for bad customer support, lets just say I’ve had my fair share, too.
You are a good person and a great marketer, and because of this, you’ll get back your money 10 fold, and this jerk will go down hard…it’s the way of the world:>)
Shell
Chris,
Very interesting story but, it doesn’t protect any of us from falling into the same trap if we don’t know who it is you are referring to. If you got ripped off you shouldn’t be afraid of revealing the name of the rip off artist.
Paul
Ron Mills.. Maybe YOU haven’t heard about Social Bookmarking yet.
Chris, hope you get through to the jerk. Keep us posted.
Pete
I have been in retail sales, and selling online. Unfortuneately, there are unscrupulous customers and vendors and there is nothing you can do but live and learn. You were very patient with this guy. He didn’t deserve it.
You should say his name, because he obviously goes around to conferences and hijacks honest business people.
Believe me, if it happened to you, it happened to others.
Hey Chris,
Sorry for your frustration dude! While I understand your initial reluctance for not sharing the person’s name – If you do post it, it’s always easy to come back and later post a resolution should that ever occur!
If a product owner mistreats his affiliates, doesn’t answer support tickets, or answer e-mails, he shouldn’t be in business!
So as a fellow affiliate marketer, should you decide to post the offender’s name, I think you’ll have others who are appreciative of the gesture, besides myself!
Thanks for the post!
-Mark
Greetings Chris
there are a lot of shysters out there like this and I agree with Linda Luck that you should name them – it is not about dragging them through the mud – the truth is the truth. Even if it is not standard operating procedure for them – if several people would spill the beans so to speak, it would possibly show a pattern of neglect and deceit from the individual.
If not the deceit will continue as you mentioned “I did a little “googling” and couldn’t find a single person with anything bad to say about the marketer behind this product.” and you help perpetuate the dishonesty by not sounding an alarm or bringing it to anybodies attention by mentioning the name in case they Google it.
Here is a recent letter from one of our customers
“I appreciate the integrity of this team and the tenacity you exercise
maintaining that integrity.”
It is too bad that some horrible marketers give the rest of us a bad reputation by end user and others experiences with them.
I THINK YOU SHOULD POST HIS NAME ALSO AS WELL AS PRODUCT SO NO ONE ELSE IS RIPPED OFF FROM THIS PERSON. WHY PROTECT HIM???
G’day Chris
Unfortunately he is not alone. I too have couple of marketers who will not pay me commissions after numerous requests fo payment and they were also for good products.
Keries
Chris,
I am a follower of a guy named Markus Allen. I’ve known him since
2001. He has said many times that he has tested over 200 affiliate
programs and most of them either pay very late or don’t pay at all!
He has been banned from the Warrior forum for exposing “gurus” that didn’t pay. One very very big name owed him $1600 for 18 months and finally after being exposed on the Warrior forum paid the bill.
By you not saying who this person is just let’s him go on screwing more affiliates.
Just a thought.
Chris,
You might leave a final note in support with this blog post link, and tell him you’ll post his name if you don’t get resolution within so many days.
Then the decision is up to him, and no one else falls for the trap.
It’s amazing how often this happens. One buy still owes me for a promo we did almost 2 years ago. Not that the $100 or so is a big deal, but it makes me never want to deal with the individual again. He has permanently lost my trust.
Too many people like this. I don’t blame you for not wishing to drive traffic to the offending party by mentioning a name. would be cool to know what TYPE of product so we can maybe do some deductive reasoning & avoid the issue.
And thanks for this post, because I’ll be linking it to a blog post I’m writing for my series about how to tank your business on ProfitableStorytelling.com.
Thanks so much. I bet you feel better for getting that rant out of your system.
Ronda Del Boccio, the Story Lady
Unfortunately, that which happened, could be a learning tool, if you should choose to look at it like that. In other words, In life it’s a live and learn thing, sadly sometimes but this experience although bad, can make you the kind of Man and Marketer, you wish to be. This can teach you how to treat others and not to treat others, too. I’m a firm believer in Karma, and his isn’t looking so good. But for now, focus on you, anger never helps us, and let me tell you, I had to learn this the hard way. I’m a 51 year old woman, who’s living with Cancer, Oh yeah I was mad at Everyone, for a while. Then I learned, It just is…I also learned, that Anger can keep you going, but it festers in you and hurts only you. He could care less apparently, but see, if you let this hurt you, then you cannot achieve what it is , you want to achieve, so Make this a Learning Experience. I’m so sure that if you allow this anger to motivate you, rather than fester in you, you will be the Winner, and he’s just going to be an Ass, for all time. SO, in view of this as my friend, do this for you and forget him. It’s done it’s over, right? I know you are angry and it’s okay to be, but do not let this experience change you and your heart, okay?? God Will Bless You and show you the way…
I agree with Linda Luck UP TO A POINT. It would be nice to have something like a BBB for the web where ethical people could be listed. If we try to start a “blacklist” however, sooner or later one of these “blacklisted” individuals is going to put their “persecutors” on the list, or someone will use the list to personally attack an innocent victim. Unless we establish a system of registering and investigating complaints, along with a rating system, (all rather expensive and labor-entensive) we leave ourselves open to legal action for slander at the least. I, too have had less than positive experiences with publishers. I started out as an affiliate marketer. Unfortunately one of the first programs I tried to market had a “glitch” in the program. Every time someone tried to order it through my clickbank link, they ended up paying the commission to “name withheld”. I even re-registered my clickbank link…to the same end. Needless to say, I stopped promoting that product. Rather than a “negative list”, which could be legally actionable, would anyone be interested in joining a “positive comments listing service”. I would consider attempting to set up such a website, if I can get sufficient interest. I would want a list of individuals or internet entities with which you have had positive interactions. I would use something like a spreadsheet to accumulate them, and once a certain threshold was reached, those individuals would be listed as “safe” to do business with. Any ideas?
The best revenge is to collect all evidence, and sue him on Jude Judy small claim court. The results will be that either he will paid you right away, or he will be expose to 10 million people for what he is, losing all his business and reputation.
To me, that’s the best marketing you can give to him!
Hey Chris,
I read your blog post, and yes it was a pretty low down snake in the grass deal the marketer pulled on you. I learned a long time ago that the law of attraction, the value and guidance from the universe will see that he is treated as fairly as you have been treated. Don’t sweat the little things he will get his! I myself say he should be exposed, I get a lot of emails every day delete some, keep some, but if he is doing this he should be exposed. I am working on a couple of projects soon will need affiliates help to move the product. I can’t afford to be dished, you can actually help all of us, by exposure.
coty
I agree with everyone above who says you should name and shame this defaulter. You clearly have it in writing that a form of contract exists and you have done your best to get your money through the proper channels.
What you DON’T want is anyone else to suffer like you have and unless you publish the name other people could lose just like you have.
I’m going to take this opportunity to name and shame another load of scammers TEAM ORANGEMOON – running a string of PONZI schemes which they care to call matrixes and cyclers – these things mathematically only make money for their originators. I’m doing my best to get this word out, but of course they threw me out of their forum on Ning for telling the truth! So help me will you – just get it out there that they aren’t Orange, but RED FOR DANGER!
I’m now firmly in a great REAL product-based business and doing very well with it. I’m through with money games and ‘information products’ forever. Take my advice and make that move. – Jenny
Chris
That really does suck, and I know how you feel.
My first $1k email was sent in February and it took until May to receive the payment via paypal, but at least it did arrive.
Don’t name & shame in public, but do leak out the details to your own JV’s so that they know not to promote the product.
Andrew
Customer support and how you do it is the only thing that differentiates us from one another.
Hey everyone,
Thanks for the amazing comments. I stopped in to see if anyone was leaving me their thoughts and I was shocked to see that this post got more comments in one night than any other blog post I’ve ever done!
That just goes to show you that there’s still a lot of people out there who are wary of our niche.
I wanted to give a little update on the matter…
I found a “better” email address for this marketer last night and I made contact with him finally. He immediately explained that he “shut that site down” so he wasn’t checking the support desk or emails.
While I’d tend to think that “shutting a site down” includes the process of settling up with everyone you may owe money to, I can see how an older site can fall to the wayside due to bigger newer more promising projects.
Not sure if it was any thanks to the blog post and all the wonderful comments but he paid me this morning
).
The reason I didn’t want to name anyone in this post is twofold:
1. By naming a guilty party on a matter like this it would send him more traffic & sales then it would discourage others from doing business with him. It reminds me of the old saying, “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.”
2. I wanted to give him some more time to make things right & be 100% certain it wasn’t some “chance” accident my messages & support tickets weren’t getting through. Granted, sometimes website “bugs” & glitches are sometimes used as an excuse for bad business skills… there’s also times when website bugs & glitches do cause serious miscommunications.
Thanks a lot for all the comments & feedback everyone shared. I read every comment on my blog & enjoy hearing what others have to say…
If you want to share a similar story go right ahead! Just don’t sling too much mud or toss any names or you could have the opposite effect of what you intended like I suggested above!
Thanks,
Chris Vendilli
Old Chinese proverb: It is easier to go thru Birth then Reincarnation. Kiss it off a build something better. You have the talent, I can see that from your web site.
Chris,
there are plenty of forums were scams and not-scams are discussed. Scams should be posted, names should be listed. give the guy one more contact with the warning that you will report him to a forum or several forums where business are discussed, people take notice, and rip-offs get noticed also.
Naming the business after warning the admin that will be your next step protects future affiliates as well. You say you researched the guy and business a bit, so will others and if there is no warning about potential trouble somewhere, more people stand to lose as well. And most of us can’t afford to lose anything!!
I had a traffic exchange that would drop my account every time I upgraded, after the second experience of getting no response from the admin, I sent a contact warning that if I didn’t get my account back with all upgrades I had purchased, then I would report to paypal (where I had paid from). I did, and no surprise, I heard from the admin, that I just had to open a new account and he would transfer all upgrades, credits, and earnings to new account.
Going over someone’s head is sometimes necessary, it gives them warning you ARE paying attention, and you expect what was offered or paid for. And when an entire forum begins to blacklist a scammer, they either pull it together or run. This is just being an advocate for yourself. I do this for my son in his school all the time. If I feel he has been misgraded, misguided, or whatever, I’m in that school finding out why and letting the teacher know what I expect from them. Usually gets results-and probably explains why some teachers are always out of their room if they see me coming…lol. But if it wasn’t for me, he would have no one to advocate for him. If it wasn’t for me, I would have no one to advocate for me in a dispute with a disreputable admin.
Good luck with this, and do report it if you get no further with contact,
Elizabeth
Just read your reply. I’m glad you got some resolution, but the guy still sounds sloppy and untogether. No, an older site should not just fall to the wayside-he should have contacted people from that site and informed them of the move, he should have settled out first then moved, given people an option to opt in to new site if newer, better or whatever.
I still think his response was bogus and sloppy, but I’m glad he paid you, finally.
Elizabeth
Hi Chris,
Well, Where Can We Start On This Issue Of TRUST !, As A Kid, My Dad Always Said,In Business WITH OUT Your GOOD NAME , WORD And A Outstanding Product And Team To Which Must ALL! Be GOLD!, You Are A Poor Man That Is Out Of Business..I’ve Been In Business For 19 + Yrs As A General Contractor In The Home Building Industry And Started Mktg. Online Back In The 90’s To Add To Our Bottom Line, When It Was Slow, As A Contractor There Are Contracts Involved That Can Help Along With Threatening Them With Leans , But Not Always. So You Have To Go To Court, Blah Blah Blah, When You Get Stiff’d. At least You Can Confront Them In Person, “I Love That” : )…Via The Internet It’s Different Or Maybe Not, (There Is The Affiliate Agreement Which Is Still A Contract), As It Seems, You Research Out A Great Product To Promote, Look For Any Complaints And Then You Go For It. And It’s Like You said, You Want To Promote/ Provide A Solid Product For Your List, That Is Attached To TRUST!, GOLDEN NAME! And Your WORD! Aspect Of This Conversation. As Of Late I Too Have Run Into A Similar Situation, Concerning SOMEONE NOT ANSWERING THEIR SUPPORT TICKETS/E-Mails Ect, On A Certain Continuity Program That I’m Sure ALL ! Of Those Who Are Reading This Will Start To Know Who I’m Describing…Let’s See They Are Located In NY and They Just Had 2 Major “LAUNCHES” “Get My Best Product For FREE ! If You Try My Newsletter Free For 30 Days, Pay Only S/H, If You Want To Cancel Call 123-456-7890 or Go To This Website, But They Just Send Out The Idem Anyway That You Canceled In A Timely Manor and Charge Your CC Anyway…Nice Ha !…I Just Went Down To The Bank With The Original Printed Offer, All My Correspondence Had It Charged Back & Had The Bank Issue Us A New Card # and Had That Company Placed On A HOT! Watch List, Done Deal. “That Was My Rant”… But To Get Back To Not Getting Paid and Exposing Someone. To the Question Of Exposing Someone (I Personally Don’t Have A Problem With That If They Are Trying To Burn You) I Know That Sucks Big Time Not Getting Paid, specially In This Economy . You Work Hard To Build Your List W/ The Same Principles Of TRUST ! Fore listed, Promoting Someone Else’s Product To Your List And You Expect To Get Paid In A Timely Manor..(In A Court Of Law It Is Based On The Word (Reasonable) (ie Was The Action Taken Or Time Frame Reasonable) For Now It Is A Personal Business Decision On Your Part…(There Is Dealing With A 3rd Party Biller ie ClikBank) (Exposing ie E-Mails To Your Friends And Partners Warning Them Of This Person or Company, As I Hinted To Above, The FTC, BBB And http://www.ripoffreport.com/ ….(Please Remember I Am Not An Attorney and This Is Not To Be Construed As Legal Advice, It Is Only My Personal Opinion)
PS: Chris Your Concerns Here Show That You Are A Good Man With A Good Heart.
To Your Future Success
Eric
I’m an old fashioned fart (6o plus) and I miss the days when you shook a mans hand and that was ALL you needed.
I still refuse to believe in the human race as there are A LOT OF GOOD FOLKS out there.
Good post!!
Dennis
I guess I left out the word NOT after refuse in my last comment.
Dennis
At least you got paid finally. And it’s true. There’s really no such thing as bad publicity.
Hey Chris I know how you feel my friend I promoted a Gurus stuff and the first day out made a few hundred dollars and when it came time to pay me my affilate commissions the console back office was reset to ZERO.
Ya ZERO,
Well I chaulked it up as a learning experience and told that guru to take me off his list of affiliates.
Chris don’t let this kind of thing ruin you as a person, I know it stinks big time but remember this my friend what goes around comes around, he will get his in the end I assure you of that.
Take care and God Bless
Frank Gorka
http://www.yoursocialfamenetwork.com
Hey Chris, These kinds of issues are way too frustrating.
I paid $2100 for a conversion course and coaching program last June and only got about 1/2 of the program. I’ve sent numerous email and made some phone calls but I never got a response.
Going to court is too much trouble. (I’m in Wisconsin and he’s in Missouri.) So, I am preparing to file complaints with the BBB, FTC, and the Missouri Attorney General’s office.
I don’t want to give this guy any bad press yet because I still think it’s some kind of misunderstanding. I plan to send him copies of my complaints before I file them hoping to get his attention.
The worse thing about all this is it takes up so damn much time.
All I can say is I’m feeling your pain.
Good Luck,
Steve
Chris,
I won’t ask for this guy’s name, but I’m having a similar problem right now (not owed commissions, but no support desk response despite multiple …and increasingly frustrated…postings), so please allow me a “generic question”.
Does the business have anything to do with search engines?
Thanks, & good luck.
Hey Chris!
Geez, that sound very annoying and fustrating. I am going to try and not ask for his name because I don’t want to cause trouble, but, if he does this, he should pull his socks up or just leave this buisness forever! But, where you said you didn’t get any commissions but your customers got what they were promised?!? I think that the content bit, yes, but not on the commissions! This guy needs to be told what is right and what is wrong in the amazing buisness!
Thanks for the post, anyway, and hope things get sorted and you get your commissions. If you need to rant any more, I have got open ears for you.
Matthew Wellington
Hey Bobby,
It didn’t have anything to do with search engines. I really have a strong feeling this blog post and the amazing response had something to do with the quick action he took to settle things.
This kind of makes me think I should post rants more often
.
-Chris
Chris,
I know You will never post my message, but I’m sure I will get emails from you about “how to make 2.5 million” …until I unsubscribe.
Being experienced software developer, I thought I could make some money on the internet, but scammers that use your marketing strategies ripped me off. Now I see this dirty business is not for me. Its too dirty…
Amazing… when internet marketers talk about being honest.. are you, guys, serious??? All your business is based on spamming and generating sites with bogus content, automatically generated blogs, twitting about your marketing “success stories as seen on TV”, selling “secrets” about how to rip off people like ‘shortcuts to internet millions’ or ‘grand funding fund’, or ‘internet pay day’, posting thousands messages on twitter about scam “products”… Your websites and social networks flooded with the links to these frauds.
So why don’t you stop complaining about dishonest marketers, do your business, make your big bucks and enjoy!
If you are making that much money, why are you selling your twitter report instead of publishing it on one of your websites? I think I know the answer. Because you make money on selling it to people like me… to people who lost their jobs… to those who desperate and naïve…
So good luck in your ‘business”
XYZ,
There are no shortcuts to making big money…online or offline. It’ll always take hard work, discipline and a desire to succeed…not to mention the restraint to be able to say “No” to products that talk about how easy it is to make 10’s of thousands. For those that already have the knowledge, many of the products that you claim are scams are good tools that actually work. For the rest, there is a lot of trial and error.
While you may think that many of the products are scams, and we all fall prey to some, most require a lot of sweat equity and have a learning curve to overcome. If you have the desire to learn and the time to put in, start small and develop your marketing skills. Better still, put your software development skills to work, create a useful product and market it. Be realistic, you will likely make hundreds, not thousands, the first time out of the gate but over time, you will make money if the product fills a need and is marketed well.
I’m not one of those making 6 figures a year but I am paying the bills from my online ventures…most of which are not marketing related but rather utilize my offline skills to fill a need online.
Hopefully you will look at things from a fresh perspective, keep your wallet firmly in your pocket, and start to crawl toward your goal of making money online. Good luck in whatever direction you take…)
XYZ,
It’d be nice to see you post your real name instead of ranting behind the veil of “XYZ.” Not that it would really make a big difference anyways…
You have a “defeatist” attitude so you’ll likely never succeed at IM…
If I were a scammer/spammer/con artist do you really think I’d have a my own name, address, and phone number all over my blog?
I shake hands firmly, look people in the eye, and I’m proud of every project my name has been on…
I won’t disagree with a few of your statements however… there ARE a lot of scammers out there. However, I’m not amongst them.
I don’t even know why I took the time to reply to your comment but I see stuff like this now & then…
I highly doubt you’ll ever even come back to read this because that’s just not the nature of the type of people who leave anonymous rants on other marketer’s blogs but there’s a few things I want to address with you -
First off your “how to make 2.5 million” comment was taken out of context. I did use a similar subject line and I know what you’re referring to – but it was in reference to Tellman Knudson and how HE made 2.5 million dollars last year with a traffic system of his that I thoroughly reviewed and promoted.
There’s no dishonesty in that promotion. It’s a great product, and it DID make him 2.5 million last year. I never said it made me 2.5 million…
Secondly, it’s not SPAM if you double opt-in to someone’s list and agree to receive messages. You my friend, need to go review the definition of SPAM. That’s one of my pet peeves – every now & then someone will unsubscribe from my email list saying that I’m “SPAMMING” them…
If they subscribed – it’s not SPAM! How hard is that to understand? SPAM is UNSOLICITED BULK EMAIL. When you ask for it and sign up for it, it’s not UNSOLICITED…
Secondly, my Twitter report IS free you knucklehead. All you’ve gotta do is sign up for my email list to get it
) (That way I can spam you!!!).
Besides, if I wanted to charge $5000 for it who are you to tell me I can’t? It’s my report, I wrote it, and I can sell it for whatever the hell I want. That’s the beauty of IM and America in general.
That’s like saying the guy who invented Microsoft Windows should give it away to everyone for FREE because it’s such a valuable & useful resource. What are you a communist?
I’ve never flamed ANYONE who was nice enough to post a comment on my blog but as I’m replying here I’m realizing more & more that you’re just a complete idiot. If you think IM is all one big scam then why are you visiting IM websites?
Being an experienced software developer you have so many opportunities you don’t even realize it – if you’d just set aside your prejudices, stereotypes, and misconceptions about this business you could open up your mind (and your bank account) to a whole new world.
END OF SECOND RANT… why am I so angry lately LOL??
On a serious note, XYZ – if you come up with some good software that’s IM related let me know. I’ll help you market it to show you this stuff works and can be an honest business.
-Chris
I should say, politics and religion provoke the very best along with the the worst in people. The very best because both can result in people being amazingly helpful, the bad side as both can lead to unbelievably obdurate and irrational action. I am not attacking you, this post merely made me realize this, so thank you for that.